Echelon, Hero Version?

I was thinking the other day about how much I appreciate HERO System from an engineering standpoint. Pretty much everything mechanical is quantized, with explicit relationships between power and limitations, and character complications. I realized it might be a useful tool for designing Echelon talents, if things line up, so I decided to take a look.

Echelon talents nominally grow in value linearly with tier. That is, a Veteran talent (third tier) is worth about three times as much as a Basic talent (first tier). Cornerstone and capstone talents are actually slightly better than common talents (cornerstone, common, and capstone talents stack between types, but multiple common talents providing similar effects don’t), but this a minor effect here. For this analysis I can treat them as being the same value.

If I want to map this to HERO System, let’s start with considering each talent to be worth five Character Points per tier (Basic is worth 5 Character Points, Expert is worth 10 Character Points, and Legendary is worth 35 Character Points). However, because power alone is a function of Active Cost, and I want to be able to get good powers (possibly heavily encumbered by limitations), let’s set the Active Cost cap for powers at a tier equal to five points per tier cumulative (that is, sum(1..tier)*5). A talent at the Basic tier can be worth 5 Character Points and have effects worth up to 5 Active Cost (1d6 Blast, say, or a 3-point Detect with a +1/2 advantage), a talent at the Veteran tier can be worth 15 Character Points but have effects worth up to 30 Active Cost ((1+2+3)*5; 6d6 Blast, or a 4d6 Blast with a +1/2 advantage) but will need -1 limitations to bring it down to 15 Real Cost, while a talent at the Legendary tier can be worth 35 Character Points and have effects worth up to 140 Active Cost (and thus will need at least -3 limitations). It is not necessary for the talent to grant only one effect, and there can be more than one thing at maximum Active Cost. For instance, at the Veteran tier you could have two 30 Active Cost powers, one with -2 limitations (Real Cost 10) and one with -5 limitations (Real Cost 5).

This means that higher-tier powers can be more powerful (exponentially higher Active Cost) if they are more limited, or grow more linearly but be more reliable and/or available. This seems pretty good so far. Given the standard talent slot allocations (and equating cornerstone and capstone talents to common talents), this gives the table below.

LevelBXVHCPLETotal Talent TiersCP
12345678
12210
24420
36630
48840
5721155
6641470
7561785
84820100
947224120
1046428140
1145632160
1244836180
13447241205
14446446230
15445651255
16444856280
174447262310
184446468340
194445674370
204444880400
2144447287435
2244446494470
23444456101505
24444448108540
254444472116580
264444464124620
274444456132660
284444448140700
2944444472149745
3044444464158790
3144444456167835
3244444448176880
Real510152025303540
Active Cap515305075105140180

That is, a ‘starting PC’ (defined as first level of Veteran tier, ‘ninth-level’ in the table above) would have 4 basic slots, 7 expert slots, and 2 veteran slots. This is worth a total of ’24 slot points’, and if each is slot point is worth 5 Character Points this would be a 120-point HERO character. These slots would have maximum Active Costs of 5, 15, and 30 points respectively.

Now, let’s see how this lines up with HERO System expectations.

From HERO System 6e book, the Character Types Guidelines Table:

Character TypeTotal PointsMatching ComplicationsMax Points Per ComplicationBase PointsComplications
Standard Normal251515 1015
Skilled Normal502520 2525
Competent Normal1003020 7030
Standard Heroic1755025 12550
Powerful Heroic2255025 17550
Very Powerful Heroic2755030 22550
Low-Powered Superheroic3006035 24060
Standard Superheroic4007540 32575
High-Powered Superheroic5007540 42575
Very High-Powered Superheroic65010050 550100
Cosmically Powerful75010050 650100

Comparing the Base Points above (second column from the right; I’ll consider Complications in a minute), I see the following approximate matches:

LevelPF LevelEchelon TierCP Character TypeBase PointsComplications
1Basic10Standard Normal10+15
2Basic20 Skilled Normal25+25
3Basic30   
4Basic40   
5Expert55   
6Expert70 Competent Normal70+30
7Expert85   
8Expert100   
91Veteran120 Standard Heroic125+50
102Veteran140   
113Veteran160   
124Veteran180Powerful Heroic175+50
135Heroic205   
146Heroic230 Very Powerful Heroic225+50
157Heroic255Low-Powered Superheroic240+60
168Heroic280   
179Champion310Standard Superheroic325+75
1810Champion340   
1911Champion370   
2012Champion400   
2113Paragon435High-Powered Superheroic425+75
2214Paragon470   
2315Paragon505   
2416Paragon540Very High-Powered Superheroic550+100
2517Legendary580   
2618Legendary620   
2719Legendary660 Cosmically Powerful650+100
2820Legendary700   
29Epic745   
30Epic790   
31Epic835   
32Epic880   

Closest-fit match actually isn’t all that bad, really. The closest-fit match is never more than 15 Character Points away from the baseline I had planned. The designations are somewhat different, but pretty close nonetheless. Normals all fit under Basic, which is okay, ‘Heroic’ overlaps the ‘Veteran’ range in Echelon, and upper Heroic and lower Superheroic overlap in the Echelon Heroic tier (which is what I’d expect, really — Captain America is in my opinion superhuman but not superheroic, compared to other superheroes), and after that Superheroic spans the Champion through Legendary tiers.

The Character Ability Guidelines Table

Character TypeCVDCActive PointsSkill RollDefrDef
Standard Normal1–41–65–358–113–51–2
Skilled Normal1–51–65–408–124–62–3
Competent Normal2–62–810–458–124–82–4
Standard Heroic3–73–815–508–136–103–5
Powerful Heroic4–84–920–608–136–103–5
Very Powerful Heroic5–95–1025–708–148–125–8
Low-Powered Superheroic6–116–1240–758–1412–156–10
Standard Superheroic7–136–1440–8011–1520–2512–18
High-Powered Superheroic8–1410–1650–9011–1625–3515–30
Very High-Powered Superheroic10–1612–2060–12012–1735–5025–40
Cosmically Powerful12+14+75+13+40+30+

This is where things fall down a bit. The Active Point ranges shown here are almost always about one step higher than I’d estimated using the formula sum(1..tier)*5. It looks like that should usually range about one step higher — sum(1..tier+1)*5. I think I might find that Active Costs will usually land in that last step for the ‘most powerful’ abilities. Close enough, though.

Regarding complications, I think I’ll mostly associate those with the talents themselves, and they can scale with tier. For instance, a character with a tainted magical power might find that as he gains the higher tiers in that power he has increasingly Distinctive Features. Similarly, the Order of the Falcon has raised the ire of another group, and gains an increasingly vicious Hunted (from ‘watched, low frequency’ at lower tiers to ‘hunt and kill, high frequency’ at higher tiers). And so on. These could allow some talents to be ‘better’ (worth more Character Points) by bringing complications. Looking over some of the game constructs this might be needed in order to allow things that can’t take many limitations, such as martial arts (which need a certain number of points of maneuvers but don’t allow limitations; Active Cost is lower than allowed to the talent tier, but Real Cost is too high) or power frameworks.

Skill rolls appear to mostly top out at 10+tier; I’d be willing to simply give a bonus equal to the highest-tier talent related to the check, when making checks. It looks almost like base CV equal to tier, plus up to another tier’s worth, is a close approximation. Ditto for Damage Class, but that goes up about half again as much (base equal to twice the tier, plus up to a number equal to the tier more — or reverse, base equal to tier, plus up to twice as much more). Defenses seem to range quite a bit higher, I’ll need to look that over more closely.

All in all, this looks like it’s actually a pretty decent match, perhaps better than I could justifiably expect.

Edit, 2024-12-15

Having had a bit of time (nine years…) to think about it, I believe it would be safe to increase the maximum active cost of the abilities from 5*sum(1..tier) to 5*sum(1..tier+1) or even 5*sum(1..tier+2). To hit such high totals means encumbering the abilities with enough limitations that I suspect they will not be overwhelming. In the right circumstances they’ll be really good, but getting those circumstances could be pretty infrequent.

Let’s see how those options compare, though.

TierReal5*Active (1..tier)5*Active (1..tier+1)5*Active (1..tier+2)Hero TypeActive Cap
Basic5515Standard/Skilled Normal35-40
Expert101560Skilled Normal/Competent Normal40-45
Veteran1530150Standard Heroic/Powerful Heroic50-60
Heroic2050300Powerful Heroic/Very Powerful Heroic/Low-Powered Superheroic60-75
Champion2575525Standard Superheroic80
Paragon301052940High-Powered Superheroic/Very High-Powered Superheroic90-120
Legendary35140Very High-Powered Superheroic/Cosmically Powerful120-
Epic40180Cosmically Powerful

YIKES!

Okay, okay, _that’s_ not going to work for me. What I meant was to make it so we shift things one row! That is, basic has an Active cap that was previously the expert Active cap and expert has the Active cap that was previously the veteran Active cap. Or shifting twice, even.

I totally overlooked that the Real cap is also multiplied by the tier. This means it’s not even quadratic, but cubic, and that climbs really fast. As it is, it’s still cubic, but n is lower.

TierReal5*Active (1..tier)5*Active (1..tier) ++ 15*Active (1..tier) ++ 2Hero TypeActive Cap
Basic551530Standard/Skilled Normal35-40
Expert10153050Skilled Normal/Competent Normal40-45
Veteran15305075Standard Heroic/Powerful Heroic50-60
Heroic205075105Powerful Heroic/Very Powerful Heroic/Low-Powered Superheroic60-75
Champion2575105140Standard Superheroic80
Paragon30105140180High-Powered Superheroic/Very High-Powered Superheroic90-120
Legendary35140180225Very High-Powered Superheroic/Cosmically Powerful120-
Epic40180225275Cosmically Powerful

Okay, that’s more reasonable. This is why we check our math!

It looks like we’re nowhere close at the lowest tiers (way below the suggested active caps for the tier), though not too far off at the veteran and heroic tiers, almost spot on for champion and paragon, and maybe a touch high at legendary.

So… generally the right shape, but the curves don’t quite match. If I were trying to best fit the paragon and higher tiers I’d be happy, but that’s a long time to wait before lining up.

Going with 5*sum(1..tier+2) overshoots at all tiers except basic… but I’m not too worried about basic tier. A basic creature being able to drop a 30 Active fireball might be a bit much, and it just gets bigger from there. On the other hand, that would be a 6d6 Blast with -5 limitations, I don’t imagine it would happen much.

It looks like 5*sum(1..tier+1) is probably our best option. We’re a little low at the bottom tiers, but on par for veteran and heroic tiers (which is where I expect most of the play to happen), and above the Hero curve for the rest.

What if we look at the cost of hitting those higher totals (i.e. the limitations that would have to apply to keep the Real cost in line)? Values below are rounded to nearest -1/4, because that’s the resolution used in Hero System for limitation values.

TierRealActive (1..tier)Active (1..tier) ++ 1Active (1..tier) ++ 2Limitation (1..tier)Limitation (1..tier) ++ 1Limitation (1..tier) ++ 2
Basic551530-0-2-5
Expert10153050-0.5-2-4
Veteran15305075-1-2.5-4
Heroic205075105-1.5-2.75-4.25
Champion2575105140-2-3.25-4.5
Paragon30105140180-2.5-3.75-5
Legendary35140180225-3-4.25-5.5
Epic40180225275-3.5-4.75-6

In full honesty, the limitation values in the original configuration (5*sum(1..tier)) fit my sense of aesthetics closest. I do not like the weird patterns in the limitation values needed in the other two columns. However, those values do suggest some alternatives.

TierRealLimitation-0Limitation-1Limitation-2Limitation-3Limitation-4Active-0Active-1Active-2Active-3Active-4
Basic50-1-2-3-4510152025
Expert10-0.5-1.5-2.5-3.5-4.51525354555
Veteran15-1-2-3-4-53045607590
Heroic20-1.5-2.5-3.5-4.5-5.5507090110130
Champion25-2-3-4-5-675100125150175
Paragon30-2.5-3.5-4.5-5.5-6.5105135165195225
Legendary35-3-4-5-6-7140175210245280
Epic40-3.5-4.5-5.5-6.5-7.5180220260300340

That’s more like it. I took the original limitation curve (straight line) and increased it by 1 (which makes it a more negative number, because convention for limitations is Hero is to write them as negative fractions). I thought about going with half steps (i.e. second column over would start with -0.5, -1, -1.5, etc.) but I wanted the differences to be bigger and the way I’ve got it now, I never end up with fractional outcomes — no 25*2.5 = 62.5 Active cap, it’s 25*2 or 25*3 (20 and 30 can have 2.5, thank you).

If we now flip this around to show how these Active caps map to the Hero guidelines (removing the limitation values and adding Hero types and Active Caps, and CP totals for the various tiers for context), we get this.

TierCPRealActive-0Active-1Active-2Active-3Active-4Hero TypeActive Cap
Basic10-405510152025Standard/Skilled Normal35-40
Expert55-100101525354555Skilled Normal/Competent Normal40-45
Veteran120-180153045607590Standard Heroic/Powerful Heroic50-60
Heroic205-28020507090110130Powerful Heroic/Very Powerful Heroic/Low-Powered Superheroic60-75
Champion310-4002575100125150175Standard Superheroic80
Paragon435-54030105135165195225High-Powered Superheroic/Very High-Powered Superheroic90-120
Legendary580-70035140175210245280Very High-Powered Superheroic/Cosmically Powerful120-
Epic745-88040180220260300340Cosmically Powerful

Given the tier/Hero type mapping above, it looks like basic creatures still can’t hit the active cap range (but in Hero System, Standard Normals have only 25 points to work with, and that’s if they take 15 points of complications!). I think that we’re coming in a little low is not truly a problem. Experts (normal people — Skilled and Competent Normals) can reach the suggested active caps if they’ve got things that are heavily limited, or paired with complications. Veterans (Standard Heroic and Powerful Heroic) are on target at Active-1 or Active-2 (meaning with at least -2 or -3 in limitations, which are a little stiff). Heroic are on target at Active-1, Paragon at Active-0

What’s This All Mean?

This examination shows me a few things.

  • The point totals generally add up pretty well, comparing levels/tiers to Hero types.
  • First cut, the Active caps on powers don’t fit really well at lower tiers (but to be fair, Hero’s also always struggled in that range).
  • The sweet-spot for fitting the Hero recommendations seems to align fairly prettily, and ‘normal and heroic’ character types in Hero tend to have more heavily-encumbered powers.
    • I’m pretty okay with allowing bigger limitations at lower tiers, in order to get the Active costs up.
    • I’m also okay with connecting complications to talents, especially cornerstone and capstone, to specifically compensate.
  • I’d probably want to constrain how many limitations can go on higher-tier talents… but I’m open to leaving that option available if needed.

On first glance, it looked like I could pretty reasonably implement Echelon in Hero, and still fit Hero recommendations. A closer look shows me it’s not quite that simple, there is some nuance to it, but that this should still be workable.

The other thing that occurs to me is that I can flip this around. Rather than defining Echelon in terms of Hero System, I could use Echelon to shape how I apply Hero System. But that would be a subject for another post.

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